Theme Park Trends That Can Transform Your Haunt

0:15 These theme park trends could impact your haunt that's coming up on today's show. Welcome to the show. I'm Philip on the HN Show. We bring you the news and insights you need to prepare for Halloween. This podcast is just one part of what we do. Our free weekly email newsletter rounds up every story, video, and podcasts in one place. You'll find the sign up link on our website and in. The show notes. Today you'll hear the full audio from my recent guest appearance on the fearworm Wormhole Show. With Tyler Barnett, operations director and partner at Fearworm, we unpack Universal's new FanFest nights, It's gamble with Dark Universe and the rise of off season activations like music festivals and summer slasher events. You'll hear how IP partnerships, luxury tier VIP add ons, and even tariff pressures on materials can reshape your pricing and value proposition this fall, Plus tactics for leveraging local brands when Hollywood licenses feel out of reach. The Fearworm Wormhole streams live every other Friday on Facebook. The link to the Facebook page is in the show notes as well.

1:24 If you'd like to join the next session. Okay, let's dive in. Happy Friday, everybody. And it's a weird one because we have back to back wormholes. We have one last week and now we're here today. How are you? I have a special episode for you today. Joining me on this wonderful conversation about theme parks and how it impacts haunted houses is none other then Philip Hernandez from the HANT Network. Philip, how the hell are you on this Friday? I'm here, I'm alive, a little barely recovered from East Coast, but I made it. I understand. I have this. We had a haunted house commercial shoot, I guess a week and a half ago, two weeks ago. I got sick after it, and I feel like I have just this lingering cough. So apologies in advance if I had a cough up on this wormhole and it's just it's I feel fine, it's is there's this cough and it won't go away. Yeah, but uh no, uh So on today's wormhole, let's talk about Philip and is why you're here. I wanted to pick your brain about the amusement park theme park business. Some trends that we are seeing in that industry and how that may impact the haunted house industry.

2:40 All right, I'm ready. It's a it's a heavy topic. So much so I guess Philip, let's let me ask you this right now. What are what are things you're noticing that just top line could be impacting haunts that you're seeing already impacting the amusement park business. So before we get into like too many of the trends stuff, i'd I'm going to start off because I was just working on stuff for fanfast Nights, so it's like literally like on the top of my brain. I was like literally like. Editing it last I was editing the real version last night, which is like taking our like twenty five minute overview and trying to make it into like two and a half minutes. Somehow I had to like re record the intro or the voiceover because I was like, this is voiceover is not going to cut it. So I actually think that this is one of those things that has like so much potential for haunts, and I'm surprised that nobody really is talking about it in that way. I think you get all the like normal like bloggers have done their videos, but I'm like, look, guys, like Halloween Hornites is the most successful Halloween event in the world, like by far, and I think that for you remember that used to be a shoulder season. You know that Halloween season used to be should like when by you back in the day that us be Shulders season. And it's true that Universal didn't start it, but Universal has helped us because they have made the awareness of a haunt event. It's like Universal is like the gateway drug

4:11 for a lot, right. You know, they do marketing all globally and they market this Halloween haunt attraction thing and it gets people more aware of it, which helps all of us. So they've helped us grow in the market share. But they've also turned that shoulder season into a big profit maker. And basically they're like the other big time shoulder season is like right now, we're in it. Right now. It's right after the spring break. Before the season, so you've got this like month of dead window. And they're like, what if we can do Halloween horn Nites again, another Halloween Hornites And I think that could be enormous because it also could open up It's like they're doing the hard work already of trying to take like a horror brand and being like, hey, we also can do this, and if they can do that, I think it could really that's like half the battle for the Haunts, as you know, is the brand idea of like how does a brand, horror brand, you know, do non Halloween stuff. It's harder in America because we're so focused on you know, we want to silo Halloween for the Haunt season, but horror is your round, so they're trying, and then they're like, also, fandoms are year round, so it's like I think that is like the potential there is.

5:26 Huge because I think it could open It could. Give Haunts the coverage and to to really open up to first spring events and do spring things and I want. And there's two examples actually that are like so we just posted as article on this one that I just posted on the website that actually sent me. But there's Fright Nights in West Virginia is doing a final cut summer slaughter event. And it's kind of like it's it's I think it's like it's very similar. To Fanfas Nights, where like the guests like walk through scenes and they have to like they're challenge to like trying to make it out of a slasher, but it's it's very much like you have a role, you play a role, you. Had to take photos, you have to do slash your stuff. Like it's really fun that way, which I think is a great idea. And then you know Field of Screams is doing a music festival, right and then all that yeah, yeah, then they're opening the haunts and also doing the music festival, right, And I'm like that is a great idea. Like it's because they already have the asset there, had the band there.

6:21 I mean like, yeah, if you have the property, you know. I know. So the past couple of years, for those who don't know there, there has been a music festival like an ed M festival at Fear Factory in Salt Lake City. Yep. They have the venue, They've got the big building, tower area to set up stage, all the craziness. So I think you're right. I think you're right on with this of how can we look to this event that's a universal is doing. How can we interpret that for hours and get people? And sometimes it is doing more than just your haunt, you know. I think Field of Screams has a great idea with the music festival and all that, but they're also kind of a side opening haunts and you know, part of that I think also stems from there's a heavy metal festival that travels around called not Fest. Yeah, part of not Fest, like the back game where the vendors are, is a haunted house. It's a traveling hant house.

7:15 That's part of the experience. Yeah, so it it's together. There's precedent, you know, like what you're saying, there's precedent and it fits together. And I think that's like that again, it's it's show. I think the assets you talked about, like like Salt Lake City, I know they do a great event there and they have a huge area there where they can hold a lot of people. And the asset is also the same thing Universal is doing, because the main part of Fanfast Nights is the back of the future Destination Hill Valley experience. And I did write like a thing. Like an article with like charts where I was like, was it a good idea to do dungeons and dragons and star Trek instead of doing anime? And I would argue it was not a good idea, But that's a different show. And there's large parts. But basically I was like, I feel like somebody on this team did not do their like basic research and here's all the reasons why it would have made more sense and way more money to do it the other way. But anyway, Back to the Future was the main thing, and that is taking an asset that they have and just reusing because they have.

8:22 You know, you're taking on the trams over to the back lot where you're on the scene from the movie the Courthouse Square, and they've turned it basically into Sleep No More meets Back to the Future. So it's a forty. Five minute looping experience and you get to follow the characters and interact with them. But they already had the asset. They didn't rebuild the square or the clock tower, right. They did add items and they did help, you know, make it, but it's not like they built that whole thing. And that's what you're saying that Fear Factory is doing as well, because you have the stage already, you know Field the Screams doing this, you have the thing already. It's how do you figured this out to. Bring people into it and monetize it in a different way that's not just about your haunted house.

9:08 Yeah, no, I think that's a great point and the kind of you know, this a question popped in my head for you, and I've thought about this. I've been thinking about this for a long time. Some haunts. I know there are some experiences that are already do this, But part of that draw to fan Fest or to the music festivals is that unfortunately, I guess I'm trying to think of the nice way of putting this, but like haunted houses as a brand, they're just not as big as we think they are. Oh yeah, And so when you have these music festivals, like you almost need the artist to be that draw, to have that brand. At what point, Philip, do you see haunts And I know some have already done this, but stemming out and actually getting the rights or paying for rights to use you know, movie IP or comic IP or some type of IP to then create an experience around because right now, the only thing I could think of commercially is Halloween or Nights you know, or six Flags. They did Friedfest yet last year, which I would call a failure, but I would Yeah, you know, it's but like kind of going that route.

10:20 Yeah, that's funny. Because you and I would call that a failure, but I feel like they thought it was a success and also RW I thought it was a success because they like use it as their main marketing point to sell you know, Legoland. Yeah, so that was that was a thing. So that's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the thing that's holding it back is actually the haunters, because I think haunters want to do their. Haunts, right. I mean, that's that's that's the simple thing. I mean you look at like the people that are serious about business, you know, like like Spencer. I mean, that's why they're doing the music. I mean, you know, I mean I think that's a big piece of it.

11:02 Because look at Jason Egan over in Vegas. Right. So Jason, I think is probably been the most successful at non horror IP because he built the john Wick experience. And this is a haunter. This is a guy who started in haunted houses and then he did the IT experience, and he's did the Blair WB project, and he did like even a horror pizza shop. I mean, he's like been all about horror and then he's like he's like, look, Universal is coming to my backyard. With Horror Unleashed, and I know that I'm not gonna be able to compete against that. So what I'm gonna do instead is do what they is follow the opportunity that they're creating by coming into the market. So they're coming in with a horror IP that's like this, you know whatever he's like, So I'm going to make an adventure based action IP experience that compliments it. And you know, I think but in his case, you know, like you know, he likes horror, like I know he likes I mean, you know, I think that's the bigger problem I think is that the haunters, that's what they want to do, and so you know, like with Hush, like Hush is in an example, they're doing like a teaky event at the bar for the summer, and it's like has something to do with horror, right, But I think I think it's more that the haunters are holding it back. Because anybody, especially now that Licensing Expo has announced so many partnerships with the TA and with the Them Entertainment Association Theme Entertainment Industry, and they have you know, dedicated areas to them, it's pretty easy for a haunter to get a license to something. So I think it's

12:33 more just about that they don't really want to make experiences that are not tied to horror. Yeah. I think part of that's also you just don't realize the value and IP can have, you know, it's. Like or even Universal doesn't realize it in my opinion, but yeah, yeah. No, I mean that's exactly right when we when we hear it all the time of like, you know, oh, how come we're not seeing these numbers with such and such is like, well, their brand is bigger and better, you know, the brand has more power, has more draw. You know. It's like you know, of course, you know, looking at fear Worm and even our pair, you know, our company red Rock. You know, when you're looking at an advertising budget for say Metallica versus an advertising budget for Nickelback, Yeah, Nickelback probably spends more. They probably have to.

13:19 With Metallica, you can just make a post and you'll sell out. You know. It's just like that's the power of their draw, of their brand. Unfortunately, that's not fear Factory, that's not another world. And so you almost like you have to keep in mind like with these off season shows or these fan fast type shows or like we're talking about, at what point do the Haunters say, Hey, I want to go license hell Raiser and build a hell Raiser experience based off the movie IP. You know how much of the draw would that be? Yeah? I think looking at the chat here, I think Robert first of all, Rob or yes, editing is ninety percent of my life recently.

14:03 But I think Robert has a good point here. He says, I think the majority of Haunts, uh see, getting an IP is different level, maybe like a brass ring that they can't reach. I do think, and that's I think similar to maybe to what Tyler's is also saying. In part of Tyler's response, I think is that idea of like it's. Out of reach. I would say, it's not as out as reach as you think, really, and I think that you need to approach it maybe with two lenses. You know, one is you can you know, Haunters are themed entertainment designers basically, and I think that one way for Haunt to approach it is to look at putting together a pop up project or some sort of project and get work with someone to get funding and then approach the IP.

14:52 That is like people. That's pretty common. I think you see we see it all the time where people you know, they they basically you're then you're just. Like an experience designer and you're working to create that. But then of course there's approaching them directly, which is an option if you're trying to put it at your location. But it's not as inaccessible as you think, especially if you're able to get some funding. And this is something like Spencer is huge, like great with you know, like getting funding from Rockstar to work on their bar, you know, a couple of seasons ago. I think you know, there's you know, you could get somebody to get funding to do it as a outside your event, or you could try and put it on your property and get funding from somebody else, or you could just approach them if you have the budget to put together do it on your own. That's also an opportunity. Also, you can think more local, and this is what when we do our green Tag newsletter and we talked about this in a newsletter.

15:49 Is a takeaway of like there are also local celebrities, and I think that's also speaking to what you're mentioned Tyler. It's like different ips, you have different reach in different regions, and I definitely think there are local yps, So there's definitely like local celebrities and local things that you could do a deal with. And I just think you could think of that on any level, Like you could do something with even a local college or a local high school if they have a big thing, or you could do it with like a local brand of beer or a local brand of energy drink if they have a popular place there. And I mean, like, I think that's the thing that Horror Knights also unlocked for all of us, which is and also shout out to Chris Stafford at thirteen four because they also did this, and I think they get talked about a lot less, although I would argue it's probably harder for them, but they both of these places Thirteenth Floor and Universal, they built a bridge for all of us between horror and music.

16:47 Right, So we saw it where multiple times. You know, the Horror Knights has featured a music artist that isn't a horror artist, and then in last years at Lehna Hayride. There also was a haunt based off of a music artists. It wasn't just a horror artist, right, And do you see that with the weekend and then you saw that also with Eleana Hey I And so I think that's another like article or another option is like you know, it doesn't you can you can take something that is not horror and like you can make it horror also, And that can help you when you're trying to lean in locally to things you can do locally to like local celebrities or with local brands. Again, if you don't have the budget or you don't have the interest in putting together an investment or doing something larger.

17:32 Yeah, I think you have a great point, especially with the local brands, you know, as an example, if you're in Chicago, and it doesn't have to be like music or movies, it could be food and beverage, you know, if you're in Chicago. If I had an event in Chicago, I'm going to try to partner with luman Audi's to sell pizza at my event. Yeah, you know, because that's a local, beloved pizza place, you know, and what Haunted event doesn't sell pizza by the slice? You know. It's just like to me, it's a great partnership. I think that's in this kind of is one of those things we see a lot in the theme parks that I think over time it's slowly trickling into Haunt space thanks to people like thirteen Floor or Jason Egan, things like that and just kind of bringing this horror, Ip what can we do? And and Phil, Philip, you hit it right on the head that Haunt owners and operators are really just themed attraction specialists like designers and builders.

18:27 So they're almost already primed to create really cool experiences if they just had an IP to work with another one. I have another question I have for you, and this might be a heady topic. I know we discussed bringing this up maybe a little later and to not get I don't want this to get political. But like anytime someone says that, God, here we go. But at what point? So I know, right now, big fear and the economy and everything is tariffs. I know Ayappa has been putting out as along with you, you know, filled with the HONT network. I've been putting out information regarding how tariffs are going to impact their industry, the amusement theme park industry, or how immigration may affect employment, you know, the employment industry. There are people in the HANT industry that say tariffs don't have any impact on haunts.

19:28 But I wanted to get like start this conversation of of how tariffs could impact these shows and events and what's the reality of that that the amusement parks are seeing that, like everything else, will eventually trickle down to haunt houses and smaller events. Wait what specifically, de Larry Faye, Yeah, I think. I think in my view, there's no way it's not going to impact haunted houses. But I think that haunted houses at the same time are also pretty insulated, relatively insulated.

20:10 I mean, it's the same thing with like, you know, if you look at recessionary time period, like people still like hount houses. It's the whole idea of escapism because you know, you're like going to go into something that's like supposed to be you know, it's like you live in a real life that's scary, so you want to go into like a fictional scary and it helps you like kind of you know, decompress. So I think that for the most part, haunts are pretty resilient. I also think that haunters are haunters, and haunters being haunters, like, you know, if they need to, they can go to the local dump and turn a pile of trash into a haunt. I mean they can they can figure it out, right, I think. And that's we know of those haunters. Yeah, I think in a way they are. I think if you look at it in my take as also being a manufacturer means so close to it.

20:55 Terrorists are going to impact every part of the economy, like every possible layer of everything in in America, and so I think in that vein you have people that there's going to be winners and losers, just like everything, and you know, it's probably going to be pretty tough for Amazon, you know, but I think haunters probably are in one of the best positions for it, and there is there is an. Opportunity here if they could navigate to it. You know. The opportunity is that you look around to see what your compet your competition and I don't mean other haunts. I mean by competition, I mean like Netflix, Right, if the Hollywood thing goes through, Netflix might have to raise prices. You know, There's all that, but also you look at movie theaters, you look at other the competition that haunts have. You look at your local market. What else are people spending their time on if you're able to keep your pricing the same or even do stuff that adds value, not necessarily lower your ticket prices, but add value, add perceived.

21:55 Value to your event. You could come in at a time where everything else is getting more expended, and that could help you capture market share. And I agree, Yeah. So I think there's an opportunities. So I don't want to be like all crazy negative about it. I think there's a great opportunity that haunts if they navigate it, like consciously, you can't. I mean, I think just sitting back and doing nothing is is not what I would advise. I would advise looking at what's going on and making a plan to kind of navigate it. But I think you know the I'm sure haunters already thought of this. But the main thing is obviously it's going to be a cost of materials. Like I know that a lot of haunters make their stuff, but it's cost of materials. And I do also want to point out that, like, yes, it's cost materials. So even if you make like your own you do your own fabricating, or you do whatever you do, like literally anything that you do, the materials are going to become more expensive.

22:48 But I think also to me, the biggest risk there are two big risks, and one is the risk to our small manufacturers. Small businesses make up I think the majority of the Haunt industry. And you know, you just think of like all of the small people, like I mean, and I think a lot of them have done a good job. Like rib Effects said, they're going to try and keep prices the same, even though you know they're playing so much more for items. We have Brandy Beasts who's talking about telling people like to order your fur now because she's going to you know, she's being transparent. This is not sure I have left. This is what we're doing. You know, I think that's great, But I think that's more where we should be worried about protecting the independent businesses and you know, making sure that we support them if we can, to make sure they're still around or that you know, they can weather. Because the big difference here is like you know, the the tear plan might change, it might go away, it might be adjusted. You know, however the administration sees fit will you know, whatever they want to do, it'll it'll change, right, But like I think bigger businesses will be fine because they have cash and they can take they can take loans. In the independent haunt businesses, you know, probably the loans are more dangerous for them, and they are smaller, they have less less runway. I mean we talked about this at Gantum.

24:10 I only have two or three months of runway, and you know that's like that that may not be enough, depending on how the sales are impacted and all that. So I think I think that's one of the big the two big things. And the other thing, also a reference earlier, is also like then it trickles down to your local market, and some markets are going to be affected more than others in terms of like if you're in an area where people are being laid off, or if you're in an area where they have less to social income, that could impact you. But I think in either of these cases, what I said at the beginning is will hold true. I mean, if you're trying to create add more value, but try and keep your pricing in the range of what people can afford. You know, I think that they'll find a way, you know, to pay for tickets to come to your haunt, and then obviously you can balance out. You know, you can look at your budget and say, Okay, well we're going to really support this vendor, so we're gonna buy this thing from them. But maybe we're gonna make these other things ourselves, and or we're gonna instead of making too many new things, we're gonna buy this one thing and then we're gonna add in more acting, or we're gonna expand this area, or we're going to do this extra thing, or you know whatever. There are ways I think for the for haunts really to combat it in ways that other industries can't that, you know. So I think in that way they're they're in a really good place.

25:30 Yeah, I tend I tend to agree with that. I think haunters sometimes don't realize how much of the you know, like you said, a lot of these haunters they make a lot themselves, and they're great at it. How much of those materials actually do come from overseas? You like, even almost everything, like almost any material that'll haunt is Yeah. Even your wooden lumbers coming from Canada. Yeah, like everything. I don't know like that, That to me too is also puzzling. I think maybe they don't know how much it's going to go up or you know whatever. It's like, you know, I I of course, I think the Haunt should look at their budgets again and look at actually look at their materials. I mean makeup. I mean there's so much of that stuff too. It's gonna like, you know, your makeup costs are going to go up all of your I don't know about fog.

26:16 I have no idea. I didn't talk to froggies, but I don't know how what IFA's going to be impacted or not. But yeah, I mean I don't know if they're sourcing glycerine and things like that from the US or from overseas, like you never know. But even but even then, the plastic containers the fog goes in, yep, you know, probably comes from overseas. Yeah, it's like I think the Haunt also should be paying attention to that, looking at their consumables for the season in the same way that you would look at your staffing schedule and look at you know, that kind of stuff. Your consumables for the season are probably going to go up, so that's going to take a bigger percentage of your budget. Roberts mentioned that the fog machines already went up. Yeah, I thought so because I think you know, we talked a little bit at the East Coast Show about that and how they were trying to lock in or before prices you know change.

27:02 But yeah, fog machines go up. Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking just now, my brain is kind of going down the rabbit hole, like everything, even the little little led lights like you mentioned with Gantham. You know, it's like I can't I mean, course, I don't work in that industry, and you know, thank I can't say this. One benefit of us being who we are is that we don't produce anything physical. You know, when people hire us, they're paying for this. They're paying for my brain and my time. That's also going to become a thing too. And we're already seeing it, right, We're seeing like places, you know, I mean, America is a service economy. We export services. We're really great at exporting services, or great at exporting entertainment. But you're already seeing people turn away from that. So I don't think that will impact haunters necessarily because there are very few of them that are like actively pitching international clients on doing horror projects.

27:50 You know, overseas, but we've had we've had people come talk to us, people from Switzerland or from Germany or so, hey, can are you all able to do this or do this some some thing things we can and some things we can't. Ye know. In the marketing world, it's like, you know, there are tactics and things that we we can do here that are illegal. Yeah. Yeah, well for better or for worse. You know, it's just you know, but what are privacy laws? I don't know. Yeah, I know, what's what's privacy? Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of good conversation in the chat here. Yeah, Roberts ads that. Yeah, the fog machines went up on May first. Yeah, Zombie skins Is said they're going to keep me it the same. Yeah. I think that's also.

28:32 I mean, I'm happy that we have so many vendors that are really trying to keep it the same. But I also worry about their businesses too, because you know, like you can only survive so long and giving your margin away, and I just I just you know, I just hope that. I think as a community, we need to protect each other, we need to like stick up for each other, and I just that's really what more, I think the angle we need to take is being like making sure that all of us are getting through. Yeah. Now Robert mentioned that, say zombie Skin, they're kind of trying to keep everything the same. Yeah, and you mentioned something earlier kind of along those lines. And I you know, I'm going to hit you with a comment. I want to get your feedback on it. But would you say that right now is the absolutely worst time to try and raise ticket prices for your event.

29:19 I don't think so not. I mean I think if you I don't even know who is like how many. I don't think that many haunts are putting out tickets. I also don't think that people are really paying that much attention to haunts. I mean, you don't have the like there are whole forums dedicated to tracking the price of the home depot Halloween stuff, right, I don't think that there are there really is going to be that many. That's that's tracking your haunts. So again, in that way, the we always complain about how, you know, we have to do all this work to get the attentions of the ticket and all that, But in this way it might be a benefit because I don't think people are going to be like looking at your stuff with a microscope.

30:02 As far as I know, the only person that tracks prices in the industry is me, So like. We only really we track only a little bit because clients will ask us, Yeah, we think. I personally think it's a bad time to raise prices right now. And it's only because you know, I. Don't even know. I mean, like, well, that's the thing is like that we we. Do know that people will have multiple hant house websites open and comparing just locally, like, oh, if we're going to a hant house, let's look at the three of these and yeah, you know, compare so and price always wins out, the price and value proposition always wins out. And you know, so it's like, is it is it the best thing for haunts to keep prices the same?

30:45 But like you said, maybe do something that increases that value proposition to win that battle. Yeah, I mean, but I don't think people are comparing right now, is my point. Like, I don't know right now, right now, they're not. That's why I'm saying where I'm like, I mean, right now in like halfway to Halloween, you know, might might be a good time, or you could you could pitch it where I mean, you could do the opposite. I mean we I think we saw this. I mean we were just at East Coast and you know there were haunts that were there promoting their haunt and selling tickets and talking about their stuff. I think, like, you know, I think. That that selling tickets now, like guaranteeing this price, you know, could be also a strategy for people is to kind of be like, you know, we're going to have our our you know, old pricing for this this year, if you're buying now or whatever. I mean, I just I don't think people are comparing haunt prices like currently right now.

31:41 So I think if there was a time you wanted to cover, to do it now probably is a good time. It might hurt you as your point in the Haunt season if your biggest competitor didn't raise prices, So it might hurt you at that time, but you could counterbalance that with value proposition, you know, revalue propition stuff, or by doing stuff where you're rewarding your best customers. Right, do your you know, your legacy pricing or whatever to those people. Right, Let me get your opinion on this. You know, I have heard from a few people, not in the hot industry, it's just outside haunt industry, other entertainments and parks and things. Is that they are worried about their Q three events sales, which is the fall, which is Halloween, because generally the populace doesn't have as much spending power as they did a few years ago, and the reality of them saving money for Christmas is going to impact Q three sales. How does that impact the Haunt houses.

32:42 I think it's very similar to what we said previously also, but I do want to kind of like take a step back and look at a little bit larger theory. We did an episode on this a few weeks ago, but basically we were looking at what can unite airlines' earnings and there their travel spend tell us about, you know, where where travel is going. And I think it's important for haunters or business people to understand the difference between trailing indicators and leading indicators. Okay, if you were looking right now at Disney's their their recent earnings call, I think that's a bad thing to look at because it's a trailing indicator. Okay, they're reporting on like the last quarter, Okay, and things happen very quickly, you know, this year, and so I think looking at trailing indicators can can get you like looking at the wrong data, and so that's why I like to look We like to look at things that are leading indicators. So look at like who, how are what's going on with purchases for airline tickets? Right, what's going on for purchases for other tourism experiences. So that's why we looked at those things. And I think like if you look at the United purchases and what they're looking at, I think you do kind of see a pattern that basically breaks up into I kind of called it a barbell. So you're looking at like there there's lots of interest in budget, and there's also a lot of interest in luxury, and then if you think about kind of Americans, the American vanishing middle class, that

34:16 kind of makes sense. And so I think hants can look at trends like that. You know, it's going to be hard to predict Q three at this point, but I think if you look at those leading indicators, things like how sales are doing with those items and how those how spending is being packed all that, I think you can make some product. But my overall trend as what I'm seeing is that like you should be aware of that barbell, which is back to the idea of like, you know, having having different values at your haunt, but being very aware of the budget constraints. And I think that's where the value thing comes in. And I think though at the same time, I think Hans hants definitely can choose I don't know how many of them it would work for them to choose luxury, like, I don't know if they like how many of them can You know, Disney can obviously, but I think I'm not sure about other I'm not sure about which haunts can do that.

35:13 But I'm just saying, like, I think value is gonna be increasingly a big part of the conversation, you know, what's it worth? Is it really worth it? Blah blah. And then I also think there's going to be a growing market for luxury because you know, we have the biggest growing demographic is millionaires in America, and so there's still like a whole ecosystem, there's a whole thing for luxury, and I think Disney probably is, you know, trying to hone in on that particular market because I was thinking just even recently, like the Star Wars Nights. I was like one hundred and eighty a ticket for Star Wars Nights and it's like four hours, and then you have to do parking on top of that, which is thirty five and you have to Like it's crazy. Like I was like, there's if Disney didn't give me a free ticket, I would.

36:02 Never have gone. It's crazy. But like I think that's you know, and then you compare that again with Fan Fast Nights, and again we see this same thing. Literally events are selling out. Yeah, so Fan Fast Nights. It's like if you're already in the parks, we have like an annual pass, you can upgrade for fifty dollars to fan Fest Nights and it's open till two. So you get from like seven to two and you get to do the Back of the Future, you get to do Dungeon Dragons, you get to do Star Trek and you get to do that. There's live bands, there's a cost, and there's like enough entertainment to keep you until two am. Okay, Star Wars Nights in the same market, like literally like an hour down the road there's Star Wars Nights and it's four hours, and it's one hundred and eighty plus parking, and there's like not really a discount. There's like a five dollar discount for pass holders. So like, I think this is exactly what I'm talking about.

36:55 It's like how much how much was the fan fest ticket if you weren't in the park already? Just I think it's seventy four or seventy eight in that range, So. Oh wow, okay, yeah, so it's a deal. Yeah, it's again that's the thing. You compare it. You're like it's one hundred dollars less than Star Wars Line and it's like almost twice as long, you know, and there's actual attractions like Star Wars Science is literally just like the you know there there's a there's not even like a cavalcade there or a parade. There's like the fans all do their own parade, you know, like like you are the performer, like you're the also. Yeah, so like you know, it's great, Like I mean, I enjoyed Star Wars lince. I think that it's fun to dress up and to all that. But I mean, I think this is exactly what we're looking at in these markets.

37:41 Is this bifurcation where you're like just like your point where you're like you're the people are comparing them. I mean, if you compare them to me, it's a pretty easy choice. But also I'm poor, so maybe there's like you know, I'm just saying right, Like, I mean, I think that's getting to what what world we're talking about it here. I think there's going to be this bifurcation. So I think the Haunts should just be mindful of that bifurcation too, Like there is an opportunity also to hit the luxury market. I'm not sure how many haunts can do that or. Well, you know a great example I always think of as Dark Hour here in Dallas. Yeah, well technically plan out, but the DFW area they have there, their VIP packages are great. They have a dedicated room, has drinks and snacks, you get a tour guide. You know, It's like they could totally offer that VIP premium experience at their Haunt house, but while also offering at the exact same time they're cheaper just kind of tickets to hit both those crowds.

38:39 Yep. Yeah, I think that's going to be a fundamental pricing for the season is going to be figuring out, you know, doing your analysis and blah blah blah blah, but also being like, okay, you know, is there opportunity for luxury and then understanding where in that budget range you know, your your demographic is falling, but either way it's going to be leaning into that value. And I just think, like the again, the I think universe. What Universal did well with Fanfast Nights was make the value proposition so high, like come on, like, yeah. Yeah, that's really hard that get Yeah, that value proposition is is very high. Yeah, Like I'm not even sure, Like I mean that is like for fifty dollars to get from.

39:25 Semprofitable at that point. You know, it's just like are they even covering payroll? I mean it's crazy. I literally I have no idea. I'm just like that is nuts. And that you could just go through. You could stay down there in the back of the future for just like hours, you know, you could watch all the different characters, or you could go and do the live bands, or you could I mean. You could watch the cosplayers. You could get character I mean like until two until two in the morning, Like what earth Like, Yeah, I think you know, I give them a lot of shit for their event because I think that they I basically I came up with like a formula that was able to compare. It's like a weighted average. It was like global reach versus local reach versus local ticket sales for the IP, and then I put that weighted average together and then I ranked all the IPS, and like the ones they did that they did experiences for were at the bottom of the list. And I was like, you should have kept back to the future but taken D and D and Star Trek and made them like one piece, you know, or something else. And you know, so I do give them shit to that. But the value proposition, it's there's I mean there's no.

40:36 Yeah, that's massive. Yeah, like in LA for fifty dollars, and especially if you already have parking like a pass number, like I get free parking, so it's truly fifty dollars for me, like I could just show up and park for free. I mean, like I paid thirty five dollars for parking for an event recently, So I'm like, this is crazy. Yeah, it's the no. I mean, those are those all great points. And I think, you know, being aware, being at least being conscientious of especially if you're in a market, say like in LA or Chicago, or in New York, Atlanta, in New Orleans, you know, these major markets, or even Salt Lake City. Yeah, where that bifurcation may be greater.

41:21 There may be more disparity between, like you said, more millionaires and the peasants below them, you know, and so you might have to you may be forced to think about these things in your preaching structure. Yeah, if you're in as, if you're in Mobile, Alabama, probably not that big of a of a swaying factor. In Chicago, New York, LA, those markets way more. Yeah, And I think that there's definitely, especially in LA, there's plenty of events where they can only sell to luxury. Yeah. You know, I don't I don't really recommend that for a lot of haunts. Like you said, I think it's very market dependent. But I know it is a thing that in the larger markets where you you know, I mean even back when Scott was doing it, his event there in Tampa was pretty luxury, and it was like one hundred and twenty dollars. The minimum ticket was one hundred and twenty, you know, and that's pretty luxury. I mean, I think for Tampa. That's pretty up there. So you know, it does.

42:19 It does. That is also a strategy that you could do, although you might argue that like Star Cruiser disproved that it's sustainable, but you. Know, that's exactly right. You know. When all that was happening and they announced the pricing on I was like, yeah, that was crazy. This will not last. Yeah, I'm shocked. It sold so many, which I think it's just shows their pricing power, but I'm just I was. I literally was like shocked. I was like, yeah, I thought about it. I was like, is there any way I could afford this? And I was like no, this is crazy. Yeah, you know, and we did a it's all all of this thinking, you know, for April Fools, you know a month ago for Fear Factory kind of did a joke where you could buy there's an overnight you could stay in the night a Fear Factory and a ticket was thirty thousand dollars or something stupid. But it's like, how much of that really, like could be done?

43:13 You know, I think there was something back here. It's the comment back here from into the Fear a while a backup. Let me let me find it for I got it right here. Yeah, this in my opinion, Yeah yeah yeah, So I looking at this one, I think I can't like I agree with this, but I do want to just point out the perspective where and this might be something haunts could like also consider in some of their stuff. It's the concept of an MVP, right, like the minum what's the minimum Bible product? And I think sometimes that like, you know, there's no way around it, like the parks are the people that make money at on Halloween haunts.

44:00 Some haunts make money, right, some don't, but like parks might make a lot of money. And I think, you know, it's it's not necessarily they don't care about the experience. It's more like they're looking at like what is the minimum that we need, like, you know, what makes it viable? And I think that's understanding their audience, understanding like how much the audience. You know, there's always gonna be the diehard fans that will you know, notice every single detail in the haunt, but you know the majority of them like just don't, like. You know, this brings up a great, a great another point of discussion, you know, you know, into the fear mentions the wow factor versus like a creative factor or something. Yeah, And a great testament to this, and what will be a great test of how much the general public love or appreciate horror is at Epic Universe, the new Universal park opening in Orlando at the end of May. There's a whole land called Dark Universe that is horror themed.

44:59 You know, I think, I think to me, to me, that is their biggest risk in that whole part Dark Universe is the riskiest part of the whole plan. And what are your thoughts on that? Like, is this another great example that adds to the list of like Stranger Things or these cheap like terrifier, these horror movies that make so much money? You know? Is this a good Is this going to be another test of how much horror can the general public stomach on a year round basis? You know, it's it's interesting. I really want to know, I like, I really want to see the data that Universal sees or like see the how they're you know, what data they're making these decisions.

45:42 Based off of. I think that the monsters, you know, the universe, the horror part of Universal definitely has legs. It's definitely a popular component and it's interesting that they they what they how they chose to do that at Dark Universe or they're basically like trying to invent kind of new characters instead of going with like, you know, the stuff, they're actually knowing that that that's an interesting thing. And same thing with Horror Unleashed. You know, they're trying that in Vegas, and I don't think you know, they say those are that the the eyps at Horrorunleashed are their most exciting eyps. I am like, what are you guys smoking? Because if it were me, I'm not going to travel to that, Like you know, I wouldn't travel with that because I've already seen it. But if it was five nights at Freddy's, I would be there, right, you know. And I think that's that's the thing.

46:32 So I just. That's it's strange to me that they're doing it in that way. And I think the only thing I. Can possibly think of is they must be trying to test what you're talking about, where they're like, Okay, if we just have our regular eyeps, you know, how much demand can they kind of generate in a year round fashion, you know? And what. Because they they own them, right, so I mean, you know, obviously it would be the best case scenario for them if they were able to kind of monetize these ips year round, because then they could you know, Yeah. And I think they realize it's also the riskiest part of that whole park because it's the smallest of the lands.

47:15 Yeah, which probably is also why they did the most advanced dark ride there, you know, where they're like, they're basically like, this ride's going to be something that everyone has to see because it's so incredible, and so it doesn't matter really if it's IP or not. And I think that. My only thing, and I think you saw this with Fan Fast Nights too. My only argument against that is like you're polluting your own data basically, right, So I think, like with Fan Fast Nights, Scott and I talked to this on our podcast. It's like the back to the future experience there, like is so incredible if you like back to the future at all, like you have to go.

47:57 But it's also in its own way, it's skewing the day. And I think that also might be what is happening with with you know, the Dark Universe, because the ride is so good, everyone has to do it. So now now it's like is it because the ride is good or is it because it's horror? Right? And now so now your data is muddy, and so you don't really know, like we still don't really know like how how how much sticking power, how much you know, monetization that power they have for horror. So I think what they might have been doing is they might have been trying to test it but also mitigate it at the same time. What that did is muddy their data, right, So like now we really don't know, Like at fan fast Land swere like we really don't know, like you know, if they had rebalanced the portfolio of the IPS or whatever, like we you know, we don't really know how much sticking power it has because they muddied their data and they made it they leaned way more into nostalgia than in popularity. And so now is this the nostalgia event or is it a fandom event like they claim? And right right, you know, and same thing with with the Epic Universe, Like, yeah, they put the horror there, but you have to go do that ride if you're visiting the park, and so are they money their data?

49:05 So I'm not sure we're ever going to know. I'm kind of like, like, you know, I think maybe with horror and leash to we'll figure out what's going on. Yeah, I think that'll be the Oldoman test, you know. And I know they're building, they're building a universal building a kids park here in DFW, and it begs the question, will that kid's family park eventually have a Halloween event? You know? I doubt it. I doubt it too, but I doubt it if I were, if I were working in Universal Creative, I would at least ask the question, like, how could we pull that off? I think they're going to do a trick or treat event. I don't think it's gonna be well yeah, yeah. So there's a really interesting.

49:49 Point here that Austin says, uh, which I think is this is a good opportunity. Yes, this one exactly like it tally knows what I've been talking about h since almost everyone who would go to HHM would pontificant time in Dark Years. Here's the thing though, So I did this when I looked at the comparison, like, I think this is another thing. This is exactly the I don't want to say the problem with haunters, but like. It's not a problem. This This just shows. You that we're in our own bubbles, and our bubble is Halloween and haunts because we love Halloween and horror haunts. Okay, what if I told you only three to seven percent of people that go to Universali go to horror nights.

50:36 Yeah I knew that statistic. Yeah, and you're totally right because like, yeah, so it's actually my neighbor, like my neighbor right now, and they would not be able to tell you on a house in town. Yep. You know. It's just like most the vast majority of people do not think about Halloween until October twenty seven. Yep, you know. It's just like it's is how it is. Yeah. So, so that that's why such a liability is because like it's actually like we see it as like, oh my god, holin h is the biggest event, and it is. That is also true. But it is also true that like what like. You know, ninety seven percent more people go to the actual theme park to do the other things than they do the horror nite things. And it's that that's why it's such a that's why it's askew. That's also why doing year round Hollween Hornites would make no sense, you know, That's why they kind of you have to have to think, like, if we're going to do different events, where they going to be.

51:33 And that's also why you're. Looking at That's also why I think the fan Fest Nights had more potential before they leaned into nostalgia. But it has the potential because they can tap into fandoms that are larger. Yes, like there are far more gamers in the world than there are anyone who's ever even thought about horror. Like it's just we're in this tiny, my microscopic thing, and like that's why. I also, I think maybe you've alluded to that. I don't think the Vegas property will do well because like so Vegas is primarily gambling and conventions, trade shows, and so it's like how much of that audience has enough love of horror or even interest in horror to go do a horror only event. You know, me personally, I would much rather go see Penn and Teller or go see Adele or something like that then go to you know, and I work in this space and I would much rather do those other things before I did that.

52:37 I think. That's so curious I you know again, I want to see the data, like how did they make this decision? And why did they choose to go with ips that are like so boring, Like you know, why again look at what's popular and like hate to say this, folks, but like Horror is not nearly as popular as gaming or as anime even. I mean I we did this comparison, you know, I I when I did the chart for our for looking at we were looking at the the this whole thing nostalgia and fandom and all that. And you look at Super Mario eight hundred and thirty million games sold versus Back to the Future, which sold eight hundred and thirty three thousand tickets. So eight hundred and thirty million or eight hundred and thirty thousand, right right, I mean this is the scale that you're you're thinking of.

53:31 I mean even if you were like again they're like, let's do a Super Mario haunt, I mean, come on, that would be like so much Like I think that the five Nights at Friday's is a great example, Like if they had positioned five Nights at Friday's at Horror Unleashed, it would really change, It would change entirely that you know, the and maybe they will. Maybe that's one of their rotating ips because they. Can't pay for it, you know, for more than a month, or somebody don't have the money or whatever. But I think. The Vegas thing is such an interesting question about like, you know, you know, are they really going to or not. I mean, it's really going to be interesting to watch the thing. I don't appreciate about that. And I ranted about this extensively and got a lot of heat for it.

54:15 So I guess I'll just do it again. But why not? They already hate me. I think TJ is excellent. TJ is great. The panel that I watched about when they talked about it at the TA did not have TJ on it, and they basically were like, we're going to do what no haunt has ever done before. And he basically just sat up there in trash tunt houses. And I did not appreciate that being in the industry, because if you were to believe Chris, you would believe that like every haunted house in America just dumps you out on a dangerous sidewalk street and none of them have anything called bars or themed experiences or midways or any or.

54:57 None of them know how to do story. They don't know how to do midways. I had to bars, they don't have any connected characters, they don't have any of these places to hang out or any of that, and I was like, this is so off base. And basically he was saying that since no hunt in America has a midway, that they're going to make a midway and it's going to be revolutionary. And I'm like, that's wrong. So that, I mean, that's the biggest one I have so far with this is like they have not said anything. Well, I mean, and I think that would apply for Halloween Hornites, you know, I mean there are areas where Halloween Hornites has kind of changed how I think event hunt owners should look at certain aspects of business, especially merch and food and beverage. If I were to take technology out of it, and that's a big if, if I were to take that out, Yeah, Halloween Hornitz, the attractions have not revolutionized anything.

55:51 Yeah. If anything, they're just catching out in. The same thing over and over and over. Excellent thing. Yeah, it's crazy. It might as well be animatronics. Yeah right right, yeah, And. It's that idea, you know, I think Austin like kind of is referencing it here and is also his recent note. But like, I think, yeah, I think it's the idea of your looking at again back to the MVP thing, like what is the minimum thing? I think that like Horrnites, we all love to go again. That's the that's the hard part about this is that we're trying to like be you know what you know, but also we just love Hornites. Everyone I'm sure loves Hornites. They love to go, love the vibe all that. But Tyler's right, like if you look at it like they really, it's just the same thing over and over and over. And it's exactly what Austin's saying about the mass appeal, like you're just they're just doing the minimum. They're doing the minimum they can to sell the ticket. And you know, sometimes that's okay.

56:47 That's the business decision is to be like, what is the minimum that we need to have a product? It makes money. We make the money on merch and food and beverage. Yes, let's just phone it in on the attraction. Keep in mind those like and you know, and I had a friend text me, I guess they were they were watching but they texted me during the wormhole and said, can't compare it to the parks they have rides and roller coasters. Mm hm, okay, I mean that's also an argument you can make, you know, but exactly. Like that's another thing we got to keep in mind too, Like I didn't want to mention that too. It's like it is also a little bit of a danger for us to compare ourselves to the theme parks and especially comcasts, because like we just we all I also just did a talk on Comcast reviewing Comcast earnings and last week's episode of the week before whatever, and they they in last quarter alone, they generated five billion dollars in cash just free cash flow from there. Like, so the reason they're stock dipped for points, even though they just literally are opening Epic Universe and everyone is saying it's great, the reason they're stock dipped is because they lost two hundred thousand broadband subscribers. And broadband makes it the vast majority of their businessiness and it's very profitable and it's very like it's it's such a good cash cattle product, but like it is shrinking. So the game for them is can we grow market share in other businesses fast enough to do with the shrinking thing, and Wall Street does not think they can or you know, things maybe

58:18 but maybe not. And it's like that's an interesting perspective to also think about this, Like they're able to do this test in Vegas that we for the Haunters. You would have to spend a lot more time making a business plan that would guarantee success, which is kind of like what Jason is doing there with like Blair Witch and with the escape the john Wick experience that he just opened. Like that's why if you talk to those people, they're so intelligent about the business and thinking about like what, how are we really going to sell tickets and how is this going to work? And all that To a degree, Universal doesn't have to care because every quarter they're getting five billion dollars and they can flush down the toilet and so you know, we don't know how much whoor Unleashed costs. I did do a whole analysis where I tried to figure it out, but I can tell you it is not five billion, you know, And so like there in many ways they're kind of like, eh, I mean, you can just it doesn't necessarily have to be a fully fleshed out business plan. I would we would hope that it would be, but it doesn't have to be because of the position they're in. If anything, Disney is in a worse position to be able to make bets on things. Yeah, that's also why Disnink goes slower. And that's also why Disney has to they have to have the whole thing has to be figured out.

59:36 They don't have a broad broadband product to sell to the market. Exactly, Yeah, that they can just then they don't have to you know a word. All love of the Universal Parks is paid for by Internet users, yeah, and cable subscribers. Yeah, And so it is true, like it is hard to I think that's what we have to also keep that perspective in mind, is as haunts, you know, this is our whole thing, and the business that we're doing with our hunt has to work. And we can admire the theme parks and all of us are fans of them, but that's not kind of their only business is, you know, is the thing that we see. So I think our business plans have to be a little bit more thought out. So also it's almost like trying to sometimes I swear I'm like you know, we're sitting here trying to figure out why they did this, and they're inside on that and all this and that. But like the reality is they it's possible that they just don't even bother that they're just like, well, this might work, let's test it, and we have money, so let's do it.

1:00:34 So, yeah, when you have when you have a five billion dollar cash flow opening up a thirty million dollar attraction, there's nothing. It's a drop in the buck. I mean, thirty million compared to five billion is nothing. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, And I think that's the perspective that we have to always. I mean, so the point the friend that tested you is is true and that like you, it's it's hard. You got to keep your perspective. But where I would argue is I still think that there are things you can look at the big trends, you know, like the ideas that you can take from it, that you can be like, Okay, it is important to think about what your MVP is. You know, is this thing that you're putting into hunt really going to sell tickets?

1:01:16 Is the question? And I think you can take that away from what they're doing. You can take the concept of does opening in the spring? Does that work at all? You can take that concept and you could test it, you know, you there are things you can take from it. Does license, licensing and IP bring a benefit to me and to my customers and pride value? Yeah, that's a great summary. We're we're at the hour, folks, So yeah, I know, I know, And this is kind of a reminiscent of our old marketing Monday as well. You used say no, But Philip, I want to thank you for coming on. I always love having these discussions with you and getting your input and insights from the amusement spaces.

1:01:58 How that can then trickle down to haunts and haunt owners and maybe get an idea where things are headed. Yeah, so thanks again for coming on. Thanks again everybody for watching. The next Wormhole will be we're back on schedule. Will be two weeks from now, so not next week, every Friday or every other Friday. But hey, have a great weekend. It's Mother's Day weekend, so you know, if your mom's still around, go give him my big old hugs. Hey, Iliya take her out they eat Philip, have a great weekend. Thank you and we'll see you all next time. Today's episode was edited by me Philip Hernandez, with post production by David Swape and original music composed by Chris Thomas. Support for today's episode comes from Gantum Lightning and Controls.

1:02:39 Gantum illuminates attractions worldwide with the world's smallest intelligent spotlights. From Dark Hour to Other World, Super Mario Land to Hagrid's Bike, Gantum goes where other fixtures can't see what you're missing With a free demo, sign up at gantum dot com slash demo. That's scantum dot com slash demo. The h a N Team includes Daryl Plunky, Emily Luis Rua, Meghan Spells, Gavin BYRNS and omni Adventures. Until Next Time, Stay Scary. This is a Haunted Attraction Network production.