NEWS: Dark Nights and the "Home of Halloween"

0:01 Okay, no, the coffee is kicking off. Welcome to our bonus. Green tagged unhinged. You gotta we got to go in and change that somehow. We have to change itage it. Yeah. Yeah, we got to change it from green tag pro to green tag unhinged because that just makes so much more sense as to what we're doing here. So, Scott, staffing is like a cluster. This it's a mess. It is a mess, and we've been trying to figure out so and this is this is staffing. You know, I'm always looking primarily at staffing for for we'll call it labor of a certain skill set. But even then it's not you know, I'm not looking for people who have twenty five years of performance experience.

0:44 You know, I need someone, I need someone, I need scare actors, I need elves, I need you know that kind of thing. And pretty much in all the markets that that I'm working at, in all the markets, we're we're struggling not only to find the people but also to get them to keep to stay as part of the cast. And you know we talked about in the show. You know, Disney is reducing its it's it's cap on the Aspire program. But you know what, and we're we're all trying to figure out what kind of benefits are going to bring people in, because you know, the smaller or mid level attractions, they can't afford to be the top, top paying gig in town. And quite honestly, from what I'm hearing, even the elements that are the top paying gigs in town are having trouble finding people and having trouble maintaining people. And and I, you know, I part of it is my fault. I know, because in the creative development, I was like, oh, we were doing well last year on casting, let's let's continue to grow on this trend. Well, we can clearly expand the number of people that will need for next year, which would be this year. And that's not the case. But I also think that the operational side, my operational cohorts in all of these are on, hey, we can be a little pickier because these folks weren't you know, they weren't the best, so maybe we cannot hire them this year. But that's not necessarily the case. And but I mean it's the point now where you know, normally when you're looking for performers,

2:19 there's there's plenty of websites, and there's plenty of Facebook groups and social media pages and all that. But but we're even posting on indeed, I mean, just reaching out to pretty much anyone and everyone. I will say it is kind of humorous some of the people we get on. Indeed, we had we had one and and I'm not telling tales out of school, but we did have one, uh one person apply for a performance position in Indianapolis from Malaysia. Wow. Okay, so now you can understand the kind of shenanigans that we're getting from that. We're having people it's very difficult for people to show up to get them to show up to audition, it's very difficult to get them to once given a position, to keep it. There's been all and there's been all kinds of reasoning behind not keeping positions this year, which my favorite just happened to be the universe tells me I shouldn't right now, Oh my god.

3:22 Okay, So. I don't know is it true? Is that true everywhere Philip? Or is it just performance or what's what seems to be the I don't know, what's your thought? What do you think about this staffing, the ongoing or the recurring or the reoccurring maybe that's more accurate, the reoccurring staffing challenge. I just have noticed it as a guest, actually, and I don't think it's just me. I think I think so. I know I was told or I found out off the record, of course, for Field of Screams that you know, because I was there night two, So night one they had I think one hundred and fifty actors and night two they had eighty. You know, so already between night one and two, like the drop was substantial as to who showed up the second night, and for the same similar reasons. Right, people were tired or they didn't know what it was going to be and blah blah.

4:29 Blah blah, all that stuff. I didn't officially hear anything about hershey, but I could feel that there were less actors. And I even know having made the videos of the same houses because they were all repeated except for the new house, right, But. There were. More actors last year, just in looking at the two videos, because there were you could tell last year all the all the scare spots were filled and this year you a lot of spots missing. And I did you did even see that in the like when I posted it on YouTube, that was even comments people are making, like like they literally they were like, well, there are only five actors in this whole haunt. And I'm like, well, I mean yeah, I mean it's kind of true or less like five or less really is what I would say, right like in this haunt. And so I think I remember we I talked about it with Universal as well, you know, like even them not being able to manage breaks.

5:37 I mean, like I don't well, and then my question is what's gonna happen by the end of the season, you know, because if if they've if they've got a you know what, what if they're looking at a sixty seventy person drop yep in you know it's it's like a forty percent drop in the first night. What's gonna happen by the end of the run? And what's interesting is, you know, as a designer, I look at it and I go, Okay, well, then I'll start designing things that require fewer and fewer live performers. And then the ticket price goes up on the other end because they have to buy more more interactive scenic or more interactive you know, more triggers, more animations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

6:19 So it's really we're really getting we're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I would love, as the quote unquote or as a quote unquote expert, I would love to have a great solution to all this, but I can't figure it out. I just I don't know. People don't seem to want to work. That's the that's the number one issue for me. And it's you know, it's it's all these crazy kids. You think they can make a living as a content creator, and many of them are and earning significantly more than they could ever make as a hunted attraction performer or a Christmas attraction performer or even a theme park performer. And I get that, but I just I don't know. I don't know how to handle it. And we've even in some of the some of my clients, we've even actually gone down because it used to be eighteen and up with all of my clients, and we've even gone down to sixteen or fifteen if they're there with a parent. With some of our that is so.

7:19 God. I agree, Like I have no idea. I mean, I you know, not being a person that's you know, but just from hearing I don't I haven't heard a solution from anybody. And what I don't like is I hear a lot of denial, and I hear a lot of like, uh, you know, a lot of like, well they'll just have to learn or kind of whatever. And I'm like, well, like. You know, I mean, like you're not their parent, right, Like it's not gonna like that's not gonna fix it. We're gonna have to keep like Disney, I guess, like Disney's doing, I guess, and we're gonna have to keep figuring out what is going to actually retain them because brute force temption is not going to work clearly. And but to your point about the kids, like again I didn't want to say this, but like, oh my god, like there were a lot that well, I don't want to say it, like a lot, but there were like child actors at Field of Screams. I mean like like I mean like there was a school bus. Fine, you know, like I get okay, I'm glad you put them in the school bus, but like I mean they were like they had to be like middle school or younger. Like it.

8:29 I was like oh my god. Yeah, it's well. And obviously this is more true of the independent Hunters than it is of the theme park hunders because theme parks can't do it from an insurance standpoint. But but it's almost become haunted attraction has almost become like the the New Circus when it comes to staffing. I mean, one of the things that that circus was known for back in the Bush Gardens days is they would they would they'd pro create so that they could have new cast members. I mean, because again, when you've got a risly act or a hand balancing act or whatever, people age out of that pretty quickly. And it's not something that you can just go out and say, yeah, I'm going to find this guy on the street or this this gal who was a great waitress and had a great smile, and I'll train them how to do this.

9:19 This is stuff they have to start when they're infants. And so it was it was very common in the circus to have these acts that would have miners because they were just learning the trade and moving up in it. But now we're in the independent Haunts. It's and it's weird because it's almost to guarantee because if you hire mom and the three kids and dad. Well, if mom and dad want to do it, if they're you know, died in the wool haunt folk and they want to do it, they're going to drag the kids along. So you know they're going to be there. You know, the attendance is going to be there, and they can't leave the kids behind because they'll have to, you know, bring in babysitters for them, or and then mom and dad can't come. So you know, maybe that maybe that is one of the solutions. It's to start looking for real families.

10:09 I don't know, I I think. So this is my hypothesis. And again, you know, obviously I'm not an operator anymore, but I would say my hypothesis is not necessarily that family dynamic that you mentioned. It's more like the people want to have fun. And basically I think two things. What got us here as in the mindset previously like it's a job and whatever the old haunters have and the old intertained professionals have, that is not going to get us in the future. For whatever reason. There's a million reasons pandemic education, social media culture about but whatever, I think one solution might be it's not necessarily that they need to be a family, but it's more like that they have a reason to want to come in.

11:05 So if it's a family, you know, like the you know, the parents, you know, like the kids and whatever or they have. But also it's like the relationships, like it's fun to be at the work location because to me, and again this is all anecdotal, right, but what I noticed is where it seems like they have the actors is in the acting jobs that are quote unquote fun, so like the scare zones because they just wander around and can do whatever they want, and they can interact with the other actors. They could have a little whatever it filled the screams. Like there are the places that were best staffed, where like the rooms that were like near each other, where they had one or two actors per scene that could that got along with each other and they could like play off of each other. And the places that were the sparsest were the ones that were like outside where there's only one actor maybe in like a hut and they're just by themselves, or you know, where it's like their ice and it's a long run because all the meandering in the woods and where they just pop out, and the same thing. I notice at Universal right, the ones that were the least were the ones where you just pop out. And if you think about it, if you break that down, you're like, well, because the reality is that job sucks because you just pop out of a corner, you know, every five thirty seconds or whatever, and you have no one to talk to, you have no support around you or anything. You just pop out of a corner. I'm not sure that's going to be a viable option in the future or this year are going on. I think that we're really going to have

12:36 to think about, like the performers are going to want to you know, engage with the customers and want to have a support SYSM around them and want to hang out with people and want to just have fun, which. I don't know, I mean. But the flip side, it's that there are some people, quite a few people who come to the auditions who want a job and their skill set is such that all they are capable of doing is popping out and saying boom. I mean, the you know, and what ends up happening is. They don't want to do it and they're not going to stay there, so it's it's I think it's a pointless endeavor, but. We got, but we got There's got to be something I don't know. We've even tried in the past. We've even tried getting like service organizations, like university service organizations like fraternity sororities who would donate their donate their time.

13:27 And I say donate their time because we would pay for each person that they would provide, but they would then take that We would pay the fraternity or the sorority. Then they would take that money and use it to support their favorite charity, their favorite cause. When I have it, I I've done that even before with my haunts, and I think that is a potential also thing. But I think it still relates back to what I mean, like it basically it gives them a purpose. Yeah, I think you're right. I think as we move forward, we've got to start looking more purpose based, not just payment based. Yes, but in order to do that, we have to find people who have the skills to do the job. And I'm also you know, here's the other thing that is.

14:14 You like, sliders always show up. That's all I'm saying. Sliders always show up because usually they're on the highest pay scale. Number one and number two, it is a skill set that they don't get another option to do anywhere else. And you don't learn to slide as a former slider. And I say former because my old body couldn't do it anymore. But as a former slider, I would go and slide at least once a year just to say I could still do it, even when my job did not suggest it. So it was, Yes, it was fun, Yes it was something. But you can't have an entire you can't have an entire park of sliders. Number one, you couldn't find enough people to do it. Number two, it would get boring really really fast.

14:55 And let me tell you Hershey Park and six Flags are. Trying well, but sliders sliders have become the new chainsaws. I mean it's it's like, we know they work, so let's put them everywhere. It was sort of like the it was sort of like the bungee, the slingshot. You know, it was like when that came, when that hit the market, it was like, oh, that always works. Let's add that to every single haunt we could possibly find. And you know, and I'm guilty of that, I did it too, because it was it was cheap and easy in the grand scheme of things to create something that was incredibly impactful, and the downside of that is it was exhausting. But yeah, like I guess I'm just saying I talked to a few so I at at Hershey Park, like I agree with everything. We don't have a solution, but I'm just I'm just mentioning anecdotal things. But like when I was at Hershey Park, I got given a host family to make refudia with, which is always fun and you know, so, but it was two kids that were like around that age, and I think like we were in it taking a break in the mom and I were talking with them, you know, their mom was there, and you know, I think one of the one of the boy, the boy was like I can't It's like I basically he was like I can't imagine being a character and and and I was like, well, what about because he's been to Field of Screams. He's say Field Screams, like it's so intense, and he's like in Hershey is you know, And I was like, well, what could you imagine?

16:23 He's like, well, I think it would be fun if I were hanging out and I could do you know, this type in this environment and these would be funny. He's like, but if I were in the Haunt and you're just popping out, He's like, that seems awful, Like that's that's it's I can't He's like, I literally cannot imagine who would do that. And I was like, well, you got to have somebody in your class. It's like the weird kid who's like Adhd who just you know, can't keep I mean, he could do it fine. He's like, I guess, but he's like, even then, I don't know, so I think that's exactly it. You know. They're just like I want to go and have fun and hang out with people. I don't want to be alone and pop out of corners. And even though it's like sixteen year old could articulate it, yeah, and and to sound like and to sound like the old guy once again, because because I mean we used to when you're doing when you're doing multiple years with the same haunt, you know, fifteen years with Hella Scream, we would have families that the kids would be would grow up going, God, I can't wait till I'm eighteen so that I can actually get the job and come and do this this thing.

17:24 Ye you know, we we we had at one point in time, there were we had three generations yep, of hot actors, you know, but that but that doesn't exist anymore. It also ties into and this is where I'm going to sound old, It also ties into the fact that what people want to do and what they are capable of doing are not the same thing. That's true. You know. They think, yeah, I could create a character and I could walk around and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and uh, you can't. They can't. And we It's interesting because we had this happen I've been doing because again, we can't fill everything with the regular auditions. I've been trying to fill them in with virtual auditions, and we had I've had two separate cases where in the virtual auditions, one person saw what I asked the person before them to do in a Zoom meeting, and they said, I just don't think this is my thing. I don't think I'm clever enough or creative enough to create these kinds of characters and to interact this way. So I'm just going to go now. And I was like, Okay, well, thank you. Would you feel more comfortable if I had to do something nonverbal? And she said, yeah, I'll try it.

18:38 So she tried it, and then she said, but clearly it's just not me. And then we had another person who when they saw they didn't even see somebody else do it. When I asked them to improvise something and it was simple, he said, hmm, let me think about that, hmm, and he exited the meeting and completely ghoes to this Wow, no words, nothing, just ran away. I wonder, is this really? Like God, if I sound really old, but like, do you think that this is I know, Scott, You're like fine, but I mean, like. That's what I'm saying. That's why I say I should like that that crank yield stay off my yard, you know. But I mean, do you think that this has to do with the pandemic? Because remember kids, right, if we're if the people were in auditioning, now are pandemic kids, which means they missed like up to four years of social developer and development.

19:35 Yeah, and I've. Noticed it, like I've noticed that like younger people are petrified of conversations with other people, like it cannot handle them, and like so do you think this is an after effect of that, Like, we have a four year group of kids that are exactly our hiring range that are terrified interact with people, so they don't want to. Act well, and they don't. I don't even think they I'll go even one step further. I don't even think they recognize live performance as acting. I don't. I don't think or even performing. I think they recognize content creation as performing. And that's easy because you can if you screw it up, you can always go back and fix it. You know, if it's a mess, you can always go back and go, oh, let me get let me retake that, let me do that again. But you know it's it's yeah, it's quite possible. It's quite possible that that is. So that just means that the pendulum is going to swing back, you know. It's it's kind it's kind of like each year with the flu or covid, we have to kind of take the temperature and see what the strain is for this year when it comes to casting and and what is it that they want. So that means that we're going to have to be significantly h not not me, because I'm working as an outside contractor. But my clients are going to have to be significantly more nimble in how they put their budgets together and how what they are offering, because you know, the tons of money may work one year, but the next year it has to be we're only going to hire in groups of five, you know, your friends. And we've tried that, you know, we've tried that for years. But it's a it's a

21:07 pistol and and it's people just just running away. I mean, you know what you mentioned the COVID thing. One of the things that I do outside of the industry is I judge I judge thespian conferences just to see what the high school talent is that's up and coming. And the first year that they were able to come back and do it live after COVID I had there. It was a duet scene. One of the kids went up on one of their lines and just stopped, stood up and ran out of the room, leaving their their scene partners sitting there, and their scene partner just closed out the scene, got their stuff and got out as quickly as possible.

21:49 Wow. So it's you may be exactly right, it's we've lost four years of socialization, So we're going to have to kind of build that back. And I don't know, you know, I'm I'm certainly open, especially to anybody listening, if you've got any ideas as to how do we make how do we make live performance in immersive theater or atmospheric theater or theme park performance or whatever you want to call it, How do we make that cool again so that you can get the people and keep the people. What is the what is the benefit? Because I mean, you know everyone can say, well, well, you know, pay them five hundred dollars an hour. Well, okay, we can hire one actor. I mean, you know, you think, you think the number of actors that in the in the haunt goes down. But I'm also from a designer standpoint, I would say I would rather have five really good performers I could design to that versus relying on you know, fifteen to twenty or you know, back in the back in the day. So back in the day, each house at Bush Gardens would have usually around thirty scare positions.

22:50 And so when you say that you did a haunt that had five actors, yeah, yeah, that makes me, that makes my stomach turn. Yeah, and you know what, But I think they're right. I think if you look at my video, there's probably only five. Like in the comments, I was like, you know, I edited out portions because we didn't post the whole thing. But they're right, there was five. Because here's the thing. You know what I edited out. I edited out all the parts without the actors. Yeah, yeah, the parts without the actors and in turn without the scares. So what you ended up doing is you edited out the long halways, yes, you know, and and in some cases they may be beautiful excuse me, they may be beautiful hallways, but they're not that interesting to watch. And in worst case scenario, you know, you edited out the black VisQueen and the two by fours.

23:33 So so yeah, it's like two and a half minutes basically per Hant. Yeah, yeah, that is that's really interesting. I wonder because I think this is this is really like it is a problem. It's a problem everywhere, and I'm wondering, like that could be it, Like it may not be cool anymore, Like I think that might be it. It may not be cool anymore at all live entertainment as a whole, because especially in the Haunt space, I mean what's cool right now is like the people in the scare zones and like the scare acters and or the sliders and all that, but they don't do anything, Like I don't say anything. They just slide at you. And then the content creators also really don't like say anything, right, Like a lot of content creators. Maybe they do voiceovers, but like a lot of them, like they're doing a trend or doing a dance, or they're like or they're just doing like thirst traps or whatever, and they're not like, none of that involves actually talking to rite.

24:33 Or communicating in any way, shape or form. Yeah, and again I can't. I can't sit here and say, yeah, that's stupid because these these kids are making more money than I am annually, and and you know, because my only fans ain't doing much. I'm just saying so no, I don't have an only fans. I really don't. But but yeah, it's and you know, maybe maybe that's the answer. Maybe it's uh, maybe it's the come and work for us and become an entrenched content creator. You know, maybe you offer fifteen positions that if you fill the entire if you if you sign a contract to fill the entire year. You can you can do content creation throughout, which was the exact opposite of the way haunts used to be because they wanted to control media. But the control over media is has gone out the window these days.

25:24 So maybe maybe that is a possibility. I don't know. Yeah, I think that could be. That could be a real So it's interesting what I was going to say last thing, because I've already I've already like twenty five minutes ago we talked. I was gonna say, is they, by all accounts, six Flags this year is of is a hot mess. It's it's a shit show, like at every location. Magic Mountain didn't even open some of their haunts at all. You know, was it because of staffing or just because they were Here's the thing, we don't know why. My guess more so now is that it is staffing. I heard from some of the people on the Six Flags one that it that the Trigger Tree didn't open because it wasn't done. And I know, like again off the record, even when I was at Hershey and I was touring during the two hours before it was supposed to open, they were still drilling stuff.

26:17 Right into the world. I think that comes down to staffing too, though. They just can't get the hands they need to put stuff up. And I will say some of the challenges that with a couple of the projects that I'm working on, it's yes, it's hands and skilled hands who can put it together. But it's also because again this there's a ripple effect, it's it's also supply chain. Now there's things that just aren't showing up. So you know, with with Haunts not opening on time, it could be because they don't have the internal staff, or it might just simply be because the vacuuform panels that are supposed to come in aren't there yet. Oh I've heard that too. Yeahah, me too. I'm experiencing it firsthand. Yeah, yeah, I think.

26:58 But what I was gonna say, I think six Flags is strategy and also to an extent, Hershey's right where it seems like the strategy of these places is moving almost the opposite of Universal. So I talked about how this year Universal is like there's basically no scare zones. It's just like, right, you know, they're so patchy. It seems like basically six Flags is like you know what, We're just a giant party, Like that's what we are. We're a giant party. We got quote unquote scare zones, but you know what, they're really just sliders and DJs and dancing and raving. It's just like a giant spooky rave with some like roaming characters and like hershey is great.

27:38 I love the hurshey about. I'm not talking smack at all, but like you know, they do have a whole slider showcase. It's a whole It's a whole part of their entertainment schedule now is that stuff and the scare zones are a big piece of it. And I'm like it's because they show up, right and like then you're like, well we'll design a show around them because we know they're going to be there basically. And so you know, if you only have I have actors in a house, but you have you know, a few dozen sliders or I mean like it's like, you know, and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that. I mean like it might be a good strategy to make it more of a party at some of these places, to differentiate yourself. I mean, like I don't know, because to me, I feel like maybe again, this is almost better for the ecosystem, because like, if six Flags can make just a basically a rave, I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that because they have the infrastructure to make the party more than so, like you know what independent haunts have. They have the Haunt that they've been working on for thirty years, and they have millions and millions and millions of dollars in that. Six Flags doesn't have the staffing and the supply chain to make haunts, but they have the infrastructure to host a party. So just host a rave with spooky characters and then let the attractions, you know, the independent haunts have their houses.

29:02 I think that is fine, or I think that could be where we're going. Unfortunately, I think you may be right. But you know, people are still people are still flocking to Halloween hornites and they are still you know, whether it's good, bad, or and different, they're still going. So you know, it's the challenge there, though is and where the what's going to be the pendulum that swings back is when it gets to a party and they lean in too much to the party. This is the challenge I've found in almost all attractions. Once they see success, they start to chase success. So once they see that something works, it's like, oh, well the party thing works, well, let's just do Let's just make it all a party. Let's get rid of the houses completely, let's just make a party. And then it so loses interest because it's like, okay, well, part of the reason the party worked is because it was different from the haunts. And when you take the hont out, then the party is the same as the other party, which is the same as the other party. Uh.

30:05 Interesting you say that. So you know Insomniac Events that does the uh that does basically d M, you know, big big DM. That's what they're no rank. So they have a Halloween event and I know this year they are hiring some pretty well known haunters to build a haunted house at their DM event. So again, well there is no there is no magic bullet. It ain't gonna work. You know, we have no solutions here. Sorry, I wish, I wish we did, but we did ask some really cool questions, so we weren't quite as unhinged as normal. But we're not too bad a shape anyway. That's enough for now, guys, Thank you again for being uh being part of the unhinged group or I'm sorry.

30:46 The pro group, the pro group, the pro a ka unhinged, and uh you know, we'll see it. We'll see at the next show. Yeah,